Dan Kimball in his book, They Like Jesus but not the Church, writes of 6 of the most common beliefs that young people outside of the church have about the church. Below is the list.
1) The Church is an organized religion with a political agenda.
2) The Church is judgmental and negative.
3) The Church is dominated by males and oppresses females.
4) The Church is homophobic.
5) The Church arrogantly claims all other religions are wrong.
6) The Church is full of fundamentalists who take the whole Bible literally.
We have talked several times about what changes we should do to bring more people into the fold and I think this is a starting point. I have stronger opinions on some of these than others, but these are what people say drives them away from church. The problem with that is because of these things we are driving them away from Jesus himself. So we need to change the way we approach the subjects above. I know that the issues above were all started with the church trying to please God but the result is driving people away.
What do we do? Quit giving the people church. Quit giving the people denominational traditions. Quit giving people man made ideology. Let us give people Jesus. A relationship with Christ will convict people to change who they are. It is not our job to pass judgment and try to change others’ convictions about what they should or shouldn’t be doing.
Maybe our comments on this subject can focus on the 6 things(in part or as a whole) and how we can change people’s perceptions of the church without compromising our faith and values.
About Me
- David Willy
- I am a husband and a father and I pray that I will continue to look more like Christ to my wife and children each day. I pray that all that I do will be used to give glory to the Father and Christ through the Holy Spirit.
1. I think this problem stems mostly from the media and churches that are media driven (ie. mega churches). For one, how many times on the news do you hear the phrase "the religous right"? If you hear it often enough, you begin to believe it. Unfortunately, "the religious right" too often refers to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, two guys who hardly encompass Christianity.
ReplyDeleteAs for curbing this myth that the church has a politically driven agenda, we simply have to "live it out" in front of our neighbors. The more people we can show love and grace to, the fewer people will hang on to what the media spouts.
2. This problem stems from both church error and people's unwillingness to view themselves as sinful people. However, it starts with the church. I think the church tries to take it upon themselves to correct other people's sins. However, ONLY GOD can change people. Our job is to point the lost to GOD and then let HIM work. "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Otherwise, show the love of Jesus.
3. Point three is two pronged. For one, the church has (and some still do) oppress its women members. In some cases, Scripture has been twisted to either keep things "the way they've always been" or to simply keep women quiet.
Secondly, the world has a distorted view of the word submission. To the world, submission means that you must obey the person in charge at all costs and even to your detriment. However, this does not describe Biblical submission at all. As the Son submits to the Father, a husband must submit to the Son. Likewise, a wife must submit to her husband. But simple submission is not all. As Christ loves the church, so also must the husband love his wife. Christian submission is not a picture of male dominance over the female. It is a picture of love as a husband leads his wife.
4. Homosexuality seems to be the "sin of the month" these days. Unfortunately, we fall into the trap of classifying sin when Jesus tells us that if you break even one law, no matter how small, you are a lawbreaker and deserve death. Thus, the need for a Savior.
Also, I believe a lot of the "homophobic" rhetoric stems from the church's stance against gay marriage. The church is not being judgemental or homophobic by taking a stance against government sanctioned sinfulness. Just because you stand against gay marriage does not make you a homophobe. We are still called to love people regardless. Again, only God can change the heart.
5. Proclaiming the truth is not arrogance. Yes, the world would love to believe that "all religions lead to God". However, this is not true and to believe otherwise is contrary to God's Word.
6. I'm not quite sure what point six is referring to unless this is what atheistic/macro-evolution people like to say. God created the world and everything in it.
Jeff
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you say on most of your points I am going to add some additional thoughts or discussion points about what you said to continue the discussion should others decide to get involved.
1. I agree the impact comes a lot from the “religious right” movement which helped get Reagan elected in ’80. But I don’t think it is only the media that is to blame for this, maybe partially to blame.
ReplyDeleteI have had a discussion with a brother that I am very close to who I can promise is sold out for Jesus and he feels the pulpit is a perfect place to preach politics and that our government should be a Theocracy. He thinks Christians should take back this nation and not let anyone else have a voice. From discussions I have had and heard with other believers, to comments on Facebook, and things I have even heard spoken from our own pulpit from Church leaders, I would say that there are a large number of people would agree with that to an extent. Which does support the idea that the church has a political agenda.
2. Agreed.
ReplyDelete3. The world had distorted the view of submission. And unfortunately this is an area that some in the church have taken on the ways of the world. It is quite disheartening to hear a brother or sister in Christ say that the reason there is so much divorce in the church is because husbands let their wives get jobs outside the home. Or the reason the world has the problems that we have today is because too many women have authority positions around the globe. These are comments that are still being stated today, all that stem from a misinterpretation of a very few scriptures.
ReplyDelete4. There are an extreme few that have really put this argument on the forefront. Groups like Westboro Baptist Church come to mind. You can check out there website if you want to see their stance. You don’t have to actually go to the churches website to see their stance, you can just see it in the site name. Google Westboro Baptist Church and see what the name of their website is. It is quite disgusting what they have done with the scriptures, and they have a scriptural answer for everything they say and do. They are most known for their protests like picketing funerals of known homosexuals while holding signs that say “Burn in Hell!”
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I don’t think it is just groups like this that have caused people to feel that the church is homophobic. I do thing the stance on Gay Marriage that most Christians have does cause some to think that way, but I think there are other reasons people feel this way about the Church. Rarely do churches provide outreach to homosexuals. They aren’t welcome in many churches. “You need to change your lifestyle if you are going to be a follower of Jesus.” How is that going to help someone come to Christ? I have sat in a church in Conroe Texas where the entire 30 minute sermon was on Homosexuality. What percentage of the 1500 people or so that were there that Sunday were struggling with homosexuality? Maybe a fraction, but should anyone have been struggling with it, they would have certainly gotten the feeling that the church was homophobic when the preacher received a standing ovation for his bold comments about the horrible gays and their impact on our society and influence on our children.
5. This is the one on the list that I had the hardest trouble with also. My thought was well all other religions are wrong. Then I went back to the key word there for us to consider. “Arrogantly.” I think it is in the approach of the church. We can’t slap on a “If you don’t love Jesus, go to Hell!” bumper sticker or attitude for that matter and expect to win people over for Christ. Develop relationships with people. Show them the love of Christ, even if they are not a believer yet and over time share our faith and beliefs. Arrogance won’t bring the lost people home.
ReplyDelete6. I also am not sure what point is being made here. I would need to read the chapter on that point and see what direction Kimball takes the issue. I guess it may be a look at strict adherence to a set of rules that aren’t always fully clear in the bible. Sometimes churches can be fundamental in man made traditions without a willingness to see things from another’s perspective. But I don’t know if that is the direction the book takes or what explanation it gives.
ReplyDelete1. Jeff, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on number one. To an extent it is the media, but, most churches are not too tolerant of differing ideas. Ask a Democratic christian, or just throw out the words Health-Care-Reform and see what type of reception you receive. How many of our members have been looking for the words, "social justice" so they can run away like Glenn Beck told them to? There is one primary political leaning in churches and any other ideas may be tolerated, but they are definitely frowned on.
ReplyDelete2. Ask the gay christian, the girl who has had an abortion, the divorced christian, or many other "sinners" that feel shunned. Sure, you may not shun them personally but they still feel the eyes when they walk in on Sunday morning.
3. I agree with this. The church has oppressed women for a long time.
4. "Flavor of the month" or not, this one is true too. We can much more readily forgive a lot of different sins EXCEPT this one. We are much more homophobic than gluttonophobic.
5. I gotta go with Jeff on 5. It is what it is.
6. Unless it reflects back on some of the other points, (ie. women) or if they mean the whole apocolyptical end of the world people. I'm with you, though, I'd need more info.
Well, of course the church has a political agenda. I agree whole-heartedly. My contention is that the church's agenda is being espoused by the fringe leaders with the loudest voice and largest platform. I don't view Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as very good representations of the Christian church. Yet, people have been conditioned by the media to immediately think of these two when talking about the religious right. And the media points to guys like this because they have the largest platforms.
ReplyDeleteNow about a theocracy...in short, it would never work. The only theocracy we will ever enjoy is in glory when Jesus Christ is reigning upon His throne. Men are lousy arbiters of government, no matter the intentions. Heck, the Christian church can't coexist as evidenced by the dozens of denominations. So, how exactly do we make a theocracy work? We don't.
Yes, the church needs a LOUD and UNITED voice to keep this country in check as much as possible. Unfortunately, the days of this country being a "Christian" country are long gone. Yes, we need to be active politically, but I think political action is third in importance (at best). First, we must proclaim the Gospel. Secondly, we must be socially active in caring for the needs of the lost, poor, sick, etc. Thirdly (maybe), we need to fight for political change.
I think the best way to make waves politically is through organic growth within the church. If enough of the lost in this country can experience changed hearts through the grace of God, then we can make political strides.
This kind of stuff makes me think about things I don't normally think about. And even as I typed the post above, I found myself questioning what was typed.
Biggdawgg,
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself here and I may be different than most but...
I can tell you for certain that David and I disagree a LOT politically. However, (and I don't mean to put words into David's mouth) I think our differences stem from the 'who' and not the 'what'.
Let me explain, you brought up Health Care Reform. I know David and I both feel strongly about social justice. David (correct me if I'm wrong) looks to the government more than me to be an arbiter of social justice. On the other hand, I feel it is the responsibility of the church to provide social justice. We want the same thing, we just want to use different mechanisms. (I know David wants the church to provide social justice too. I just think the government should stay the heck away.)
Also, the Democratic Christian, the homosexual and the girl who had an abortion...
I agree, they are typically frowned upon, looked at differently, whatever you want to call it. And this is wrong in any context of Christianity. These are all pride issues. Jesus had dinner with tax collectors, prostitutes and other sinners. And the church can hardly even TALK to homosexuals, let alone sit down for a meal. We are a rich people and we are full of pride and we are STILL in need of a Savior.
And I'm getting long winded.
By the way if you didn't get a chance to pull up the church's website that I mentioned in point 4 (Westboro Baptist Church) the site is www.godhatesfags.com
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion points and I will be back to respond later. Thanks for all the comments so far.
Here is something I have started feeling about politics. It is a distractor. It gets Christians off track and focused on the wrong thing. When a leader in the church gets up during communion and goes off on having evil people in control, and we all better start praying for God to do something about it, I feel that is wrong. Anyone with a different viewpoint feels unwanted and unaccepted.
ReplyDeleteThe church needs to worry about church things and the individual can vote and support their own political beliefs. But I don't think the church as a whole needs to have a political agenda because the believers in the church have different beliefs. The minority in those beliefs will not feel accepted quite often.
More to come later.
I agree totally with the last few comments. Totally with the "distractor." I might even go so far as to call it an idol. When we look to Barack Obama or Sarah Palin or even James Dobson to be our savior, we've got some serious issues.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that I think sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. We get so embroiled in the "ianity" that we miss the "Christ." We get so wrapped up in church, that we forget Jesus. Then when we see something like this that points out how the world views us, we get defensive.
Jeff's statement about organic growth is the key. We gotta quit fixing the exterior. We gotta stop "whitewashing the tombs."
We're so busy fighting about whether a woman can give an announcement, or whether a pitch pipe is an instrument, or whether people can speak in tongues, or . . . that we don't actually DO anything. We're so busy "defending the faith" from one another. Meanwhile, a lost and dying world looks at us as, at best, irrelevant and at worst, a joke.
Not only are we guilty of making a person our idol, but a political party or politcal stance, has also become our idol.
ReplyDeleteI think this is done with good intentions. I think people are trying to please God, they just get so busy defending a man made system that they forget to defend God and Jesus Christ. Sometimes it is hard for us to see the difference when we get so passionate about it.
The problem with church and politics: the party that the church has decided is "righteous" spends their money is strip clubs, get caught soliciting sex in airport bathrooms and so on, just as the "other" party does. Think of all that could be done for the Kingdom if all the "religious right" would stop wasting their time at Tea Parties and picketing Planned Parenthood and bashing our President instead of praying for him.
ReplyDeleteTrue Dat!
ReplyDeleteI have been guilty of getting wrapped up so strongly in political debates. And not a single one of those heated debates ever changed anyone's mind, and never served any good. I feel certain. And while doing that not once did I or any others stop and pray for the leaders or pray for the situation being debated.
What is ironic in all this political discourse is that there is no "religious right" and "liberal left". There are only people who HAVE POWER and people who WANT POWER.
ReplyDeleteThe church would be best served to pray vigorously for our leaders whether we agree with their policies or not. And our prayers should be asking God to open their eyes to His love and call them to repentance. Nothing more because only changed hearts can bring actual change in this country.
In the meantime, the church should focus on God's business. Proclaiming the Gospel, seeking the lost, clothing the naked, feeding the poor, providing shelter for the homeless.
I thought I would give a quick response to Jeff's comments about our differences. Yes I agree the church should be involved in working out social justice issues. We need to look at the world with the compassion of Christ and be moved to action to help.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes I feel the government should be involved in it also. Here is why. I believe some, not all, of the social issues of today stem from mistakes our government has made in the past. Oppression and poor judgement has had a lasting effect on many people. I teach US History and I see things that happened and see the effects of court decisions and can't help but connect some of those decisions to problems some people still face. I believe the govenment should do something about it. They may not be able to fully right the wrong, but I think they need to take responsibility. Second thing is, I think the government can impact certain areas of social justice that the church can not.
Now to the mention of a Democratic Christian, many would say that is not possible. I have even heard that people in my very own church have said you can't be a democrat and a Christian. If you are a democrat you are on the path to hell. What does that say to someone out of the church who takes a liberal political stance. It says, you aren't welcome here because you are different and God is going to punish you for it.